Thanks for the links but a couple of corrections:

1. You have a colon after “among her circle.” Could you please change that to a period?

2. It’s not accurate to say among my circle. These are women I come into contact with but, for example, there is one on the list I’ve never met who is a blogger at a well-known very right-wing blog - we may share educational and familial facts but otherwise, I am pretty sure she wouldn’t consider herself as being “among my circle” and I wouldn’t say I’m in hers at all. She also lives several states away.

Also, the woman who owns a cleaning business and the religious school sec’y - important people in my life, but not “among my circle” as that phrase usually implies.

I imagine most of us have circles of friends that overlap because of us being the common denominator. But as far as my circle goes, honestly? I don’t have any one definable circle except that of my closest friends. Among the people I mention in that post, only one woman is in that group (and I’m excluding my dear mother who is close to me, but er um, she’s not really “among my circle”).

Thanks.

You wrote: “And what are feminists to do? Many of them, as Jill shows, are now admitting that ideology trumps gender. This is a horrible admission for them to make, as it means that their organization, their entire reason for being, from NOW on down is to help not women, but liberal women only. That’s fine with me as it’s just an acknowledgement of the real situation, but that hasn’t been the rhetoric of the feminist crowd.”

I’m not sure what you mean, Dave. How do you get that ideology is the key? I mean, I think you are 100% correct that gender has zero to do with it but ideology? Do you mean, Palin does not share the same positions on issues that matter to them?

If that’s what you meant, then I agree. If you mean just because there is a D or an R, then I would not agree.

Thanks.

Oh - and that same quote? You seem to imply that there is no such thing as a Republican feminist? Or a feminist who is pro-life?

That’s not true but is far more nuanced than the way in which you’ve written it - and there are good writers out there who I’m sure are covering that.

In fact - one of the big debates now out there is about whether feminism became too much about “just women” and not enough about making sure we are always talking about what it means to support all women - regardless of some choices they may make.

You really jump the shark here - or didn’t read any of what I posted in the big wrap up post:

“And back to Sarah Palin and her impact. I don’t put much stock in the Hillary die-hards, ideology will trump gender and they will end up, grudgingly, in the Obama fold. However on the way there, they will wrap themselves in the opinions of their fellow ideology over gender cohorts in order to make themselves feel better as they pull the lever against the first female VP in history.

Let’s be empathetic, they are going to need a lot of therapy for the cognitive dissonance.”

Dave - everyone, men and women, swap out something that isn’t represented in the ticket they’ll end up voting for in exchange for getting the win. In which case, all voters feel cognitive dissonance to one degree or another.

In fact - all Americans who believe in Democracy practice cognitive dissonance when the folks they prefer don’t get elected - because even though their person lost, they stay in the US, yes?

So - come on - you can do better than this post. It’s really pretty low common denominator stuff.

No problem, will make the comma-period swap.

On the other stuff, the mere fact that you’re recent two posts cover Palin, Woman and feminism speaks to the fact that this is a big issue among the blogher folks and yourself personally.

If it was just ideology, what’s the big deal?

obviously there is an issue to be resolved or corrected here. And the obvious takeaway is that women who consider themselves both feminists and care about issues (on either side) have a choice to make. Can’t be both.

Dave - I am totally not understanding you - why is there a choice between being a feminist and caring about issues? I think I’m reading something not as you intend it.

Huh? What could be simpler, you either vote your gender or your ideology (which is always the correct choice).

The wrong choice is suggesting that folks vote for someone because they share an attribute. Which is not what you are saying…and I salute that.

Dave - I couldn’t disagree with you more.

You are saying that voting is a single issue activity - you either vote for someone because he is a man or a woman, or you vote for someone because you think the same things.

That’s untrue in reality, but true to the binary way many people think.

Why aren’t you owning this a bit more and indicating that this is your worldview about how you think women choose? Or men for that matter.

It certainly doesn’t reflect my reality or that of the women I described. If it did, there would be no point to having speeches, advisors, image consultants and so on.

Secretly, or not so secretly, I’m guessing you just like messing with me. That’s okay - I miss messing with you too. Do they have a he said she said on AOL?

Jill, I am right and you are illustrating it for me right here and now.

You are not voting for Obama because you agree with him on the issues, not because you share any attributes.

I’m not saying there isn’t anything else that goes into that decision. But are you denying that ideology trumps gender in your case?

I wasn’t out to mess with you but I do think the amount of pixels expended on Palin and gender issues is interesting in and of itself.

Dave - you prove my point about your inability to be anything other than binary on this issue of how people choose the people they’ll vote for. Thank you.

My opinion is you overemphasize, overdramatize and overestimate the number of women may feel that they’ll be holding their nose while voting for Obama and, as you suggest “against the first female VP in history.”

That statement is actually wrong anyway - I’m sure there were women who would have liked to have voted for Geraldine Ferraro but couldn’t vote that ticket and ended up voting “against the first female VP in history.”

Gender issues need to be out in the open and discussed - it hasn’t happened enough in the general population.

Dave, I know some of the PUMA’s locally and outside of Ohio, on top of that there were quite a few women that I know that were Clinton supporters that aren’t blog junkies like we are, so they probably wouldn’t be “PUMA’s”.

Some are voting based on gender but for more of them the reason that they supported Hillary was much more than her gender. It was the experience factor. Then there was of course the group that was voting based on gender that put that before party. Those are the women who after Obama picked Biden were pretty disgusted and were happy when McCain picked Palin.

It was more than just Hillary for them when she did not win, it was felt as another betrayal by the Democratic Party. Many like to ignore the problems that happened with the caucuses, but they feel very strongly that Hillary was cheated, actually it would be more fair to say that women were cheated as well as the sexism which is now being directed at Palin which is having an impact on them. So, some of them are having a hard time getting excited about Obama, no matter who he sends out as a surrogate.

There are women out there who feel a woman, even a republican woman would benefit our gender should she be elected. That once the glass ceiling is broken, it makes it easier for those to come who share a closer view to their ideology. I did not pick Clinton for her gender, but some of the things I saw, read and witnessed as far as the sexism reminded me of why I was active in the feminist movement years ago. You could say it created a “reawakening” of sorts…

LisaRenee, I have to think that it’s also not just that Hillary was passed over, but that she was passed over for Joe Biden, who added absolutely no excitement to the ticket (and certainly no diversity).

Governor Sibelius, for example, may have helped with the PUMA’s.

Interesting thoughts.

Possibly, though I agree that the Biden pick has not enthralled any of the Clinton supporters I’ve talked to.

Though had Obama not picked Hillary and picked another woman then the same pandering claim that’s being directed at McCain should naturally happen. Well…if the media wasn’t biased…I think Palin was a great strategic pick and not just because she is a woman, it has given McCain the ability to reawaken his reformer/maverick image. The other women that have been suggested don’t bring that same aspect in as Palin has managed to ignite thus far.